Dacus: I saw your vinyl collection. There’s so much classical music. As a kid, I always thought classical music was lame. Like, that’s old. But then growing up and [realizing] this is still some of the most inventive, robust music in the world. There’s worlds built in classical music without anything other than sound. I hear it in your music so much. 

Monáe: I actually did not listen to a lot of classical music growing up. I didn’t start to discover Rachmaninoff and Bach … I got into more scoring and orchestration because of my love of film. When I was deciding what kind of artist I wanted to be, I would listen to a lot of instrumentals. I would listen to the instrumentation of Blade Runner. 

Dacus: Do you do research a lot when you’re making music, or do you just go in?

Monáe: So The Age of Pleasure, for instance, my last album, I really studied my community and my tribe, my fam. When we would go out and party, I was like, “What are we listening to? What are we all unanimously on? What vibe, what frequency are we on?” And I wanted to make an album just for us. What does it feel like when Janelle Monáe feels safe? What does it feel like when the people around her feel safe? Black and brown folks, queer folks, when we’re not centering chaos, when we’re not centering those who don’t want to see us smiling and having a good time, what does that look like? What does that sound like?

Dacus: You talk about your sexuality and your gender — it just seems to expand over time. You’re now expanded to the point of being everything.

Monáe: I see the same thing with you, especially with this latest project, which I love. I loved the video for “Ankles.”

Dacus: Aw, that was so much fun.

Monáe: You in the dress. First of all, you looked so beautiful. But I love this character. I feel like I want to see this character come out in some long-form way.

Dacus: So, you own these parts of yourself, whereas I don’t know if I have them. I have to do them to see — acting, or other types of writing.

Monáe: But wait, you studied film?

Dacus: Yeah, I do feel like that is who I am and music is this weird side road that happened.

Janelle: Outfit by Thom Browne. Jewelry by Nikos Koulis and Misho. Lucy: Outfit by Thom Browne.

Monáe: That is so weird. Are we the same?

Dacus: Well, you’re a director. You’re, like, an auteur.

Monáe: I have not finished writing my thing. I’m in the middle of writing it right now.

Dacus: A screenplay? You don’t need to talk about it. But I want to know.

Monáe: Well, yeah. I am writing a screenplay right now.

Dacus: That’s so sick.

Monáe: The goal has always been to write, star in, do the soundtrack, produce. A lot of things, I know, but I have to fully realize an idea, and I know that I will not stop until I get this. I wish I had some sort of pipe that I can push in my brain. Because the time that it takes … You have the idea, and to realize it, you gotta talk to all these people. I’m just like, “I see it!”

Dacus: With film, there’s so many other people.

Monáe: So many filters. Yeah.

Dacus: That’s the thing. I was like, “Man, if I keep doing film, I’m going to have to talk to rich people so much. I’m going to have to convince them they’re going to make money on me.” I felt so demoralized. I’m going to hate myself if I contribute to work that I think  is bad for the world. 

“Do not ask me to choke my freedom to make you comfortable. I spent a lot of time unlearning that”

Janelle Monáe

Monáe: Yeah. But I see it in your music videos. I see the tiny nuances. I follow the character. I’m in the world that you built. Even in “Ankles,” I was like, “This makes so much sense.” And even [how] you use words, it’s cinematic. And that’s a filmmaker.

Dacus: Thanks. An album to me, what makes you not turn it off is thinking about it as a progression through scenes. You have to earn the end of the record. So often, my favorite songs are toward the end of the record because it’s like you set up the question and go on the quest and then you arrive at something. Do you ever think about that? Because you have such scenes, actual vibrant settings that you move through. How do you track stuff?

Monáe: I don’t lock in to making an album unless I know how I want to start it, the acts within it, and how it’s going to end. I need to know the hero’s journey.

Dacus: Uh-huh.

Monáe: I need to know the turning point, the call to action, all the things. And I need to get out the messiness of who this person is so you can feel the transformation of them. And once I lock into that, all the songs just flow.… Now, sometimes things are not resolved, and it’s a “To be continued.”

Dacus: Such is life.

Monáe: Yeah, that’s life. Everything does not always pan out. I need to know that, though, before I start mapping.

Dacus: My first girlfriend in college was like, “We’re sitting down, and you’re watching these music videos.” I remember watching [your] music video for “Q.U.E.E.N.,” with Erykah Badu. It’s the best music video to me. I show it to all of my friends. I just love that you’re your own guest rapper. The reveal, you’re set up for a feature and then you feature yourself. It’s amazing.

Monáe: Wow. I’m blushing.… I was reading Ray Kurzweil’s The Singularity Is Near before we wrote any music for my first album [2010’s The ArchAndroid]. That was talking about the Turing test and how when AI can trick you into believing that you’re talking to your mother and you’re not, that is when the singularity is going to happen. And where we are right now today, the fact that we can talk to [a chatbot] …  You cannot distinguish what is a human voice from AI. It’s just mind-blowing how technology moves at this exponential rate.

Dacus: I wanted to ask you about that, because 15 years ago, you have this android life that you’re bringing so much heart to. And now, it feels closer than ever that androids are actually going to enter our sphere.

Monáe: Yeah. They’re here.

Dacus: I don’t know. At least for me, I’m very freaked out. I’m not for it. AI seems like an easy way for people to get out of the dirt and grime of having to coexist.… When actually, it’s through the hardness of being with each other that we find the peace and the comfortableness. Part of being comfortable is maybe testing that it’s not just happiness all the time. It’s getting through disagreements and hardships …

Monáe: In real life.

Dacus: Yeah. It’s like you’re tearing the little muscles so they get stronger.

Monáe: That’s a good song lyric. “You’re tearing the little muscles to get stronger.”

Dacus: Take it.

Monáe: I love that. But I feel you. And I am scared too. I’m also hopeful that we will realize, as we have throughout history, that we need each other in real life as well.… Whatever we can do to get our feet in the sand and really connect, I think that will benefit us long term.

Dacus: Yeah.

Monáe: I think that our mental health will become much better,  because isolation, too much of it … I’m an introvert. How about you?

Dacus: I’m more of an introvert as time goes on. I’ve always been a host. Sounds like you throw parties.

Monáe: I do.

Dacus: I used to before I moved here. This is the most introverted I’ve ever been, living in L.A. I’m from Virginia, and I lived in Philly for a while. The houses I lived in were, like, show houses. I’d come home and someone would be having their birthday party who didn’t even live there.

Monáe: For a long time … I grew up Baptist. What’d you grow up?

Dacus: Baptist also.

“It’s very important every day to wake up and be like, ‘Is it boy day or girl day?’… I want it all. I don’t think you need to choose.”

Lucy Dacus

Monáe: I grew up in church. We could not show skin. There were a lot of women in our family who were violated, so they would say “cover up” as a way to protect yourself from men being attracted to you. And I had to unlearn that. My freedom is important. My bodily autonomy is important, and my freedom cannot be choked so that you cannot have urges to want to rape me or molest me or violate my body.

Dacus: It’s not on you.

Monáe: That’s not my problem. That’s something you need to control.

Dacus: That’s a sickness on the other side. 

Monáe: Do not ask me to choke my freedom to make you comfortable. I spent a lot of time unlearning that, and also pushing my boobies down, because it was something that I was made to feel more ashamed of, versus confident within and in celebratory of.

Dacus: Now you’re tits-out on the album cover.

Monáe: I guess I’m making up for lost time. I don’t know. But I’m also just honoring my body and saying, “I’m sorry.” I’m sorry that I didn’t know that it wasn’t my fault.

Dacus: That’s so powerful.

Monáe: Talk me through some of the things you had to tell yourself, too. Because like me, we both can do tuxedos and suits, in our Thom Browne — be fully clothed and comfortable. I feel sexy in a suit. I feel sexy in a birthday suit. What was going through your mind when you were visually thinking of the iconography for your look? Were you scared? 

Dacus: For being more masc?

Monáe: For just going between — I say water and rock. Soft and hard. Being nonbinary, I think of it in energy.

Dacus: I feel this deeply. If I was told “You have to be one way forever,” I would be like, maybe life’s not for me. It’s very important every day to wake up and be like, “Is it boy day or girl day?” Or on tour, especially if we do two nights in the same city. I’ll have boy night, girl night. In the “Ankles” video, I have this big gown, and that obviously feels like a costume because it is one, but whenever I’m doing a really feminine look, I feel like I’m putting on a costume, but for fun. And then I feel more myself in more traditionally masculine clothes. But I want both. I want it all.

Monáe: And you have it all.

Dacus: I don’t think you need to choose. Even if the words don’t follow. For some people it’s really important to find the words, and for me, it’s more important to find the inhabiting. That took a while. As you’re saying, growing up Baptist, I didn’t grow up with a ton of examples of people who I would describe as free. If I ever saw one out of the corner of my eye, they’d be vilified. Or not even just vilified, but made fun of. And you’re like, “I don’t want to be a pariah. I’ll keep in my lane.”

Monáe: I was with a friend, and we played this game. There are four energies in the car. One is fear. One is ego. One is spirit. One is sexuality. Who’s driving? Who’s riding shotgun? And which two are in the back seat?

Dacus: Fear has got to get to the back seat, but it’s so often driving. Or maybe passenger princess is fear. I think when you love your life, fear comes in. The more I love my life, the more I feel I have things to lose.… Forever Is a Feeling is a lot about falling in and out of love and having love just wreck your psyche. It changes your life whether you’re ready for it or not. And it’s just this preemptive feeling of loss. And I also did want to make some happy songs. I think they’re important. I want to get old and hear that I felt this way.

That’s the other thing. I’m thinking about time constantly, and I’m weirdly always thinking about my deathbed and how I want for everything I’ve made to have made me proud. I just want a document, like Historian, of having felt this way, because I want to remember what it was like.

Monáe: I love that. One of my biggest fears is not really my transitioning out of here, but the people I love. 

Dacus: That’s my biggest fear: people that I love leaving without peace.

Monáe: Yeah. It’s something I don’t think anybody ever gets used to.

Dacus: For lyric writing, I’ll think out albums five, six, seven. Every year, I have a thing [on my phone] called “various bits”: 2023, ’24, ’25 — every lyric idea, I put in there.

Monáe: That’s so smart. See, mine is song concepts.… This was so magical and wonderful and so peacefully inspiring and creatively fulfilling to be in your presence, and talking with you and being able to just tell you in person how much I love you.

Dacus: I can’t believe you’re saying this to me. That’s what’s crazy. I’ve been a fan for so long. Please keep making great music. You don’t have to, but it seems like you have a lot of plans.

Monáe: I feel like we’re supposed to make movies, too, and we will. I am speaking that into the future.

Dacus: It is supposed to happen.

Monáe: As a futurist.

Dacus: I’m really excited for you.

Monáe: I can’t wait till you do your first movie. I see it. You can do it all, and you will.

Dacus: I really want to.