MEMPHIS, Tenn. (WMC) – Action News 5 hosted a candid discussion on the role the church plays during times like these as pastors and theologians respond to concerns from their congregations about federal forces in their neighborhoods.
Our Jerry Askin sat down with three faith leaders who are diverse in their perspectives on crime and crime fighting, but united in their love for our city.
Dr. Kenneth T Whalum Jr. is pastor of New Olivet Worship Center in Cordova.
“Memphis born, Memphis bred and when I die, I’ll be Memphis dead,” said Pastor Whalum.
Dr. Keith Norman is senior pastor at First Baptist Church Broad.
“I’m not just from Memphis, though, I’m from South Memphis,” said Dr. Norman.
And Dr. Pete Gathje is Professor of Religion at Lemoyne-Owen College. “I’ve been here nearly 30 years.”
They joined Action News 5 at the National Civil Rights Museum to discuss the church’s role in the civil rights movement then and now.
Dr. Whalum: “Were it not for black and white pastors and other denominational leaders, there would have been no moral center for the movement, and it’s moving to know that that still exists.”
Dr. Norman: “I would agree, not just the conscious, but also the funding source, the private meetings and the public gatherings, the information system.”
Dr. Gathje: “That was exactly what I was going to point to is that these were places that African-Americans could be safe, places of inspiration, places of theological visioning, so that the movement was certainly a political and social and economic movement, but it was a faith movement.”
How is the community reacting?
Action News 5’s Jerry Askin: “There are a lot of questions about the federal occupation currently underway in Memphis. We’re all trying to understand it, put these numbers that we’re being given into context. What conversations have you all had with city, county, state, or even federal leaders about the National Guard or federal occupation coming here to Memphis?”
Dr. Whalum: “When word first came down that President Trump was thinking about sending in federal resources, Mayor Young convened a group of pastors and other faith leaders and other individuals to sort of let us know what he had heard was coming down the pike. A couple of things we talked about in that meeting with Mayor Young was pastors, particularly black pastors, supporting black-owned businesses, very small scale, across the city, in a persistent and consistent way to try to strengthen the economy locally. That was one thing we talked about because there are things that we can do and things that we can’t do.”
Dr. Norman: “That’s a civil rights model. Call the pastors together and let them communicate to their congregations and to the community and other stakeholders. And we just decided to double down on the things that we could do because the federal government did not communicate and still has not communicated effectively to our local leaders, as they should, in disseminating information as to how this playbook should unfold.”
Dr. Gathje: “Well, I’d just say I haven’t been consulted, which is, I think, true for most people in the city, right? And so we’re left with a lot of questions on the part of like, how is this being organized? Who’s really in charge? And what is the focus? Is the focus on violent crime? Or as we’re seeing in the most recent report, it’s a lot of traffic stops. Well, traffic stops are not going to really affect much in terms of violent crime, but they are going to target people who might have an expired tag, or a headlight out or a rear light out, and who are those people? They’re not the upper middle class.”
A previous call for the National Guard
Pastor Whalum called for the National Guard in 2023 because he said he believed it was needed then and still believes it’s needed now.
Dr. Whalum: “Yeah, 2023, everybody will recall there was a mass shooting on Beale Street. Hundreds of mostly black kids were gathered on the street, eight of them were shot. And I at that moment called for the National Guard because, not because of any law enforcement kind of perspective, but because the National Guard is tasked to protect life and property.”
Dr. Norman: “To the point of Dr. Whalum, I could agree at the time of his calling for them at that moment, more succinctly than I would at this moment, because the reasons are distinctly different. I think if we are talking about what we’re seeing from the federal emphasis, the motivation is completely different, and that is what’s concerning me.”
Dr. Whalum: “We can’t deny the truth of what he just said in terms of what Pastor Norman said about the motivation of the involvement of federal forces in terms of the definition. But we also cannot and should not ignore the truth of why they are here in the first place. None of us disagree with the fact that there is a crime matter or issue in this city. It’s the approach. It is the manner by which we are going about to try and solve it.”
Dr. Norman: “The manner in which it’s happening and the rhetoric by which it is unfolding, the terminology, and the very use of a system that seems to be oppressive and regressive to African American people. Let’s face it, when we talk about unleashing the guard and when we talk about unleashing forces in a community, that’s almost like sending a signal of old to control and repression and whatever it takes.”
Dr. Gathje: “It’s a spectacle for sure, especially about around the National Guard. How’s the National Guard going to stop the murder? I just don’t understand. It’s not about crime. It’s about an agenda at the national level that is anti-immigrant, that is anti-people of brown skin. And they are being targeted under this narrative of fighting crime.”
“You know, and it’s easy, I think, that the anti-crime narrative…Who wants to be for crime? Nobody’s for crime, and yet crime is being used as this wedge to open a door for all sorts of authoritarian political activity on the part of different federal agencies. That’s what I’m concerned about.
What concerns do you have?
As Jerry’s conversation continued, the faith leaders opened up even more about not only their concerns, but also those of their congregations and students.
Dr. Whalum: “In answer to the question about our congregants, we have a period of time on Sundays where I have all of the kids come to the altar with me. We all sit on the floor together. And interesting, last Sunday, they were excited about the fact that they saw a black helicopter pilot, a Tennessee state trooper helicopter. And they weren’t saying they were afraid of the Tennessee Highway Patrol. They were saying, I want to be a pilot one day. So, I think that part of what our responsibility is as leaders is to teach our children that life is complex, it’s complicated, and there’s at least two sides to every issue.”
Dr. Norman: “Our congregation is not monolithic. We come from a wide range of people, from people who live all over the Mid-South. So, they bring different viewpoints, and I don’t try to shape their viewpoints in terms of whether this is good or bad.”
“I believe God is a big God. He can handle praise as well as protest all in the same space. And so let the people who want to praise, praise. Let the people who want to raise a fist and shake their hand at God do the same thing. He’s big enough to handle them both.”
“It’s a full gamut of emotions. We have those who are not sure of how to process it. Because let’s face it, this is some very sensitive information, and when we talk about people who are well-informed or not so well-informed, people process it differently. I think Pastor Whalum made the best point of it all. We don’t want to shape and color through our interpretations by fear or by force any response. We want to allow faith to guide us in all of those responses.”
Are students worried?
Jerry Askin: “What are you hearing from students about the National Guard?”
Dr. Gathje: “So, the students are very concerned. Just the other day, there were helicopters flying over the campus continuously. There was a lot of fear and panic on the campus about, ‘what does this mean?’“
“We’re sitting in this space (the National Civil Rights Museum), and I’m looking off to the right, and there’s this question in red, how does it feel to be a problem? And I think that’s a key question for Memphis as a community to ask, how does it feel for us to be defined by a problem, which is crime, or to be defined by a much larger story and reality, of what this community truly is. How do we want to be defined? And who does the defining?”
“I think this is a time to ask questions about who are we as a community? Are we being defined as a problem? If so, who’s defining us that way, and how do we challenge that definition in a way that leads the community into a better future.”
Action News 5 would like to thank the National Civil Rights Museum for letting us host this conversation.
Jerry Askin reached out to two dozen faith leaders of both big and small congregations for participation.
We thank the three gentlemen who agreed to share their thoughts candidly.
You can watch the entire almost hour-long conversation here:
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